Joel's Blog

Thing 1 and 2 Fish

07/10/2008

Since the introduction of our extremely well-received Gramercy Dovetail Saw we have been getting tons of queries on when the next models of saws are coming out. I can finally say: testing is done, they are almost in production, and we like them. Like the dovetail saws, these will have walnut handles, but with a killer etch with more detail than the smaller etch that's on the dovetail saw. It will be a folded back, heavier than the dovetail saw, but with the same attention to detail - beveled edges and careful radiusing at the toe. The prototypes in the picture are totally hand made, with poplar handles because we changed handles designs a few times to test some theories. The production saws will be with the right wood and the etch.
We tested a bunch of filings - 12ppi rip with aggressive 0 rake angle seemed the best, and 14ppi Xcut cut about as fast as the 12ppi xcut but left a smoother finish. the Xcut has a 14 degree rake angle and about 20-22 degrees of fleam so that it will cut quick but the tool is strong enough to hold an edge in hardwoods.

To test the cutting, our intrepid saw-makers hand filed the teeth in a bunch of profiles and labeled the saws "1 Fish" and "Thing 2" so we could tell them apart during testing and just refer to the performance without having to refer to specifics which might prejudice our results. The extra blades in the pictures are from saws blades we tested and decided against. At the far left is a saw without any teeth which we will file teeth on if we need to do more testing - or sell it to someone who only uses power tools.

Once again, we found we preferred a light, responsive saw rather than a heavy backed saw, though one advantage of a heavy back is it reads vertical very nicely. This is a feature that's important, but by lowering the handle in relationship to the back, we got the same sense to vertical without the weight.
Of course the blade is canted which helps even more.

We'll also be selling a kit for this saw. I don't know the prices yet, but with materials going up like crazy, and all the hand filing and hammer setting we know it's going to be a few bucks more than the dovetail saw (which may go up a little in the fall). Still, we hope you will like it as much as we do. Our next step is finalizing production drawings and sending the saws out for a few more tests.

Join the conversation

07/11/2008 Ray Gardiner http://www.backsaw.net

Nice work, I look forward to seeing the finished product.

I agree on the pitch and rake for rip, zero rake, tiny bit of fleam has worked well in my (non-scientific) tests. Did you consider trialling progressive pitch and or rake in the rip tests?

Good to see, a company that does it's homework.

07/11/2008 Paul Chapman

They look interesting, Joel. We are fortunate that the number of independent makers of top quality saws continues to grow - the demand is certainly there.

Keep up the good work.

Cheers :-)

Paul Chapman

07/11/2008 joel www.toolsforworkingwood.com

Ray,
We have played with progressive tooth saws but we in general don't see the point. just using a bit of the saw to make it easier to start isn't really necessary because hand filed saws are easier to start anyway and it makes the effect length of the working part of the saw shorter.
because we hand file you end up with a little bit of fleam and the rip saws - which makes it work a little cleaner. It's not officially part of the design but it turns out that way - which is a good thing.

joel

07/13/2008 Peter Evans

Joel, I have a 28" Disston 12 (1896-1917 vintage) rip saw with 3 1/2 ppi (and so marked on the heel), however the first 8" is filed 4 1/2 ppi. So either a user variation (the saw is in good little used condition ), or a factory request. I notice that 3 1/2 ppi is not listed in the catalogues on the Disstonian. It is certainly easier to start at the toe with 4 1/2.

07/13/2008 joel https://toolsforworkingwood.com

Peter,
I was mostly referring to backsaws and have never tried a progressive rip as you describe. However in the hands of someone who needs the extra speed of a 3 1/2 point over 4 1/2 point saw - would the difference in starting be something that becomes a non-issue with practice - so they might as well have filed the entire saw 3 1/2ppi?

07/14/2008 Andy

Thanks for the update! Very exciting to see that these will be coming out soon. Do you have an approximate time for when they might be available? Or can you say whether you'll have a prototype (or production units) available to try at the hand tool conference in KY?
Congrats on completing testing for another great tool!
Andy

07/14/2008 joel moskowitz https://toolsforworkingwood.com

I can't tell you exactly when we will have production units available. we expect early fall - well in time for Brea. As soon as we firm up pricing & etc we will announce pre-orders.
Thanks for the encouragement.

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